Women and casual sex

sexNote: I am not talking about long term relationships or sex as a physical act of love. We all know it’s great, we all know expressing love physically is important in a loving relationship. But it’s not what this post is about.

The casual sex. The one night stands. Whatever you want to call it. The sex “just because”. What does it mean for women?

In my teens, when I was young & inexperienced, I had a distorted view of sex. In a way, I was always able to distinguish between sex and love, not in a way they can’t or shouldn’t go together, but in a way I know when an attraction is purely physical. And there’s nothing wrong with it per se.

The problem is, I saw sex as something more brilliant, more amazing or, if you want, more romantic than it actually was (for most of the people anyway). I thought sex was magical in a way. That it is all about the physical passion that overcomes the reason, the mind, anything. The unstoppable. That it’s about two people wanting each other so much, they would do anything to touch each other and lost within the passion, even if it means not to see each other ever again. I thought it was about the feeling – and I hope you all know what I’m talking about – the feeling of wanting a man so bad it hurts; knowing that it’s impossible not to look at him, to touch him, to be with him.

Needles to say, it doesn’t work that way. Now, I’m not talking about myself here, but about general human experience with (casual) sex. In many cases, it’s not really about the passion. It’s about boredom. It’s about scoring. It’s about getting drunk and not knowing or caring what’s going on. It’s about being a rebel, or even not having anything else to do at the moment. But mainly, it’s about the boredom. There’s nothing passionate about it.

Now, I’m one of those people who do not believe in some “principal” differences between women and men. “X are from Venus, and Y are from Mars” is crap, if you ask me. I do know there are differences, but they are mainly cultural, and, while culture is very important, I do not believe women have different (sexual) needs nor that they are biologically less promiscuous than men. In case of casual sex, I don’t think women are unable to enjoy it, nor I think all women seek love and long term relationships first.

But here’s a fact (or a general rule): women do enjoy casual sex less and it often leaves them unsatisfied on all accounts. Why is that?

In short: it’s their culture’s fault. Not matter what they might think, subconsciously, women still buy double standards and believe in the old society rules that clearly say casual sex is not for women. The worse case is for the ones who try to fight double standards and the old morality.

These women don’t involve in casual sex because of the sex itself, but because they want to make a statement or rebel against their parents, society or double standards. In these circumstances, the actual sex becomes unimportant, and the quality of it is diminished.

And there’s another dimension. There are, indeed, plenty of women who don’t believe in double standards and who don’t see anything wrong in casual sex. The problem is: they are not alone here. Which brings us to the other main point:

It’s men’s fault.

Ok, ok, before you shoot me, here’s what I mean: it’s not just female upbringing that stands on the way of women enjoying casual sex. There are also people they enjoy casual sex with: men. And men have their own upbringing. Needless to say, many of them still embrace double standards in all their “beauty”.

I’m not saying all guys are double standard loving assholes. Not consciously anyway. But at the end of the day, when it comes to casual sex, it looks like most of them don’t really get that it takes two people to play this game. Two equals. That’s why you get all those guys who disrespect women involving in one night stands. Yes, even if said women involve in one night stands with them.

Many men do not wish to see the situation as such (as my male friends like to point), and many claim they, in fact, don’t think badly of women who like casual sex. But at the end of the day, it does seem only a selected number of them are able to fully respect women who do it.

Also: boredom. Like I said, many people involve in one night stands not in passion, but out of boredom. In these circumstances, the quality of the actual sex is diminished. However, it looks like it has worse effects on women. While men hate bad and uninspired sex like anybody else, in the morning they can comfort themselves with the thought that “at least they got laid”. But women tend to feel used after a bad sex, especially if a guy showed no actual interest in their needs during the intercourse. That’s why, instead of “well, at least I had sex” she thinks “what have I done?” in the morning.

These are some of the reasons why casual sex rarely works for women. They do it to make a statement, and they do it with men who don’t respect them. As sad as this sounds, if a man doesn’t respect a women enough (not in the morning but during the actual intercourse), the sex would suck for her. Not to mention she’ll probably feel used in the morning. That’s why many women decide that “casual” sex and one night stands are not for them.

39 thoughts on “Women and casual sex

  1. Sigg3

    I think it’s too easy to blame culture. This notion seems to blur the line between cultural heritage and genetical heritage.

    The (measured, scientific) truth is that mankind is a group animal, much like the wolf. We die on our own. Many of our species’ characteristics then, are aimed at our groups’ survival and not necessarily our own.

    What we know from studying the evidence in front of us (and from archeological digs), that is our bodies, is that during the critical hunter/gatherer period of mankind’s evolution MEN were hunters and WOMEN were caretakers. This has had a significant impact on us, and is not something you just choose away. It’s hardwired into our brains.

    Men can multitask, but women are much better. Why? It’s easy to speculate that men were following one animal or one herd for prey; while the women were looking after several children at once.
    This is, largely speaking, a culture.

    But this practice is not random, it is a method of survival, a means to defeat death; so natural selection will select those who perform this culture, and it becomes more imprinted on us than merely “this is the way we’ve always done it”. It becomes engrained in our bodies and buildup.

    The reason I’m writing about this, which at a glance may seem a bit off topic, is because this “culture” (and/or genetical heritage) plays a decisive role in our everyday behaviour today.

    There’s reason to believe then, that men have ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reasons (and subconscious urges) for one night stands than women.
    That is not to say that women does not cheat or do one night stands. But I think you’ll find that statistically, men are doing it a lot more, in a significant manner. So what you may opine is well enough, but these opinions are enforced by nature.

    This is why The Principle of Equality in ALL MATTERS ultimately fail. We are not equal, and we should be glad (or else we’d be dead). We need our differences. The Principle of Equality Under LAW is a whole other matter. But people seem to confuse the two. We are what we are not by choice but by nature.

    As you mention respect during intimacy, don’t you see that you are requesting some requirement of The Caretaker?

  2. Jasmin

    Great post Mira!

    I think women are conditioned to not admit enjoying casual sex, but at the same time they are conditioned to use sex to their advantage (with all of the “femme fatale” stereotypes). So they might try to sex to get a more serious commitment (after all, it works out on TV) while the guys write them off from the start (because “loose” women don’t deserve respect).

  3. Mira

    @Sigg3
    Rule number one, Sigg: don’t argue prehistory with an archaeologist, lol.

    In a way, I get your point. But you should get your facts straight.

    Men can multitask, but women are much better. Why? It’s easy to speculate that men were following one animal or one herd for prey; while the women were looking after several children at once.

    This is false. Women had to move with the animals like men did. They couldn’t take many children with them. That’s why humans had their first significant population growth in neolithic times, when humans became sedentary. But at those days, they weren’t hunters anymore.

    There’s reason to believe then, that men have ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reasons (and subconscious urges) for one night stands than women.

    I understand this logic: men want to spread their seed as much as possible. But isn’t it the same for women?- They want to find the best possible mate and there is a biological reason for them not to stick to one man, but to seek another, always “better and better” if not every night, but at least several days a month, until they get pregnant with a good candidate? After all, that’s what female animals often do. They mate with as many good candidates as they can find.

    Now, I don’t believe humans should stick to polygamist animals- I do believe it’s evolutionary advantage for humans to be monogamous. But that’s another story and I might write about it later.

    That is not to say that women does not cheat or do one night stands. But I think you’ll find that statistically, men are doing it a lot more, in a significant manner.

    Yes, but it’s because of cultural reasons, not because of different sexual urges. Women don’t do it as often as men because it’s not a socially acceptable behavior. Not because they don’t have the urge, especially during ovulation.

    We are what we are not by choice but by nature.

    In a way, yes. But culture, not nature, is the one that made women see casual sex as something bad. Female animals don’t have the problem of mating with several males during mating season. Some of them even eject male’s sperm if they decided the male wasn’t good enough (or the best possible candidate).

    As you mention respect during intimacy, don’t you see that you are requesting some requirement of The Caretaker?

    When I said “respect” I didn’t mean on love and admiration. I meant on sexual respect. It looks like many men are unable to care about their partner’s sexual needs unless it’s a woman they respect.

    I am sorry, but “wham, bam, thank you ma’am” attitude in bed can hardly satisfy a woman, and even a one night stand partner deserves more. Hey, even a male hamster gives oral sex to the female, and they are doing it for reproduction only. Human sex should be about fun, especially the “casual sex”. So why denying the fun to your one night stand partner?

  4. Mira

    @Jasmin

    I think women are conditioned to not admit enjoying casual sex

    I think women can’t enjoy casual sex for various of reasons. First being the fact it’s never really “casual”. Even if they don’t want a relationship, it’s rarely about the sex only- more often, it’s about making a statement and proving a feminist point or something. The actual sex in these conditions can’t be amazing. Plus, like I said, if her partner is a typical male who’s there a)because of boredom, b) proving how macho he is, c) doesn’t care about her sexual needs- most of the women would see the experience as less than satisfying.

    but at the same time they are conditioned to use sex to their advantage (with all of the “femme fatale” stereotypes). So they might try to sex to get a more serious commitment (after all, it works out on TV) while the guys write them off from the start (because “loose” women don’t deserve respect).

    This is also true. Using sex to get a serious commitment- or any other non-sexual “favor” is a bad thing that many women use.

  5. Sigg3

    “Women had to move with the animals like men did”
    Of course they did. You go where the food is. I’m thinking locally here. Say they stay for somewhere ten years or just half a year until their prey moves. Doesn’t really change the fact that one part of the group is out hunting, while the other group is back home looking after the kids in very simplified terms. These are both VITAL tasks, nothing demeaning about it. But it has changed our physics more than anything (from our appearance to the oxygen levels in our blood, the size of our limbs etc).

    My point being that you cannot distinguish culture from genetics entirely. We are naturally apt to act in certain ways because it is to our benefit (and more importantly the benefit of the group), and within the limits that necessitate our freedom.

    It’s like children and sugar. Why do children like sugar?
    Why, you say, because it is sweet.
    Yes. But IN ORDER for something to “be sweet” it must stimulate some part of the brain which triggers other responses again such as the “liking of”. This process is not random, it is a carefully developed trait of our (/children’s) brains because young human beings need carbohydrates. Sugar is carbohydrates, hence sugar is sweet.

    I think you are completely avoiding my point that you may be naturally inclined to feel the way you do about one night stands because you are a woman. And this makes your statements of sentiment and moral judgments both obsolete and demeaning towards the other half. It takes the brain out of the equation.

    So if culture is the root of all evil we are suddenly stripped of our humanity as nature and remain only as morally judgmental “cultural” objects on a chess board. This is not reality. It does not embrace the full image. It is quite wrong.

  6. Sigg3

    But I think there’s a confusion of terms here, that we have not quite defined. Personally I find it immediately advantegous to seperate the term in two groups:

    Culture – The elevated or downright superficial traits of human thinking e.g. the Mere Choice Culture. This group includes culture such as ballet and opera, Big Brother television shows, the great classics and McDonalds. Of course they all appeal to us BECAUSE of some stimuli they can/do create in us, but that is by proxy (Freud, Nietzsche).

    The second group is more of a Culture in the way that it is a more or less set praxis regardless of Mere Choice Culture (or country for that matter) which include behaviours (on group or individual level) that are benefactory to our kind on survival level. It is further down on the pyramid of needs than Mere Choice Culture; it does not need a proxy to stimulate us as individuals or groups.

    My belief is that our sexual habits is very much a mixture of genetic makeup and the second, more low-level form of culture; namely the actions that have historically developed because they are benefactory to us.

    Now, we may have Mere Choice culture feeding off the Low Level culture on many levels. Take various religions’ stand on sexuality or what kind of meat you can eat. Ultimately, you can always trace it back to a Low Level culture where the doing something or refraining from doing something was a matter of life or death.

    Now, as I said before, women are adulterers and loose just like their counterpart. But I think they are so in significantly different ways, and significantly less statistically.
    You may argue that it would be just as evolutionary happy for women to be as busy as men. But this argument is easily thrown.

    If we presume that our existence is at stake fundamentally then no behaviour is Mere Choice behaviour, it is survival behaviour.
    There can be no doubt that women try out different men to find their mate. But it would not be advantegous to a woman to leave a man when once (at least noticably) pregnant. It would also not be advantageous to a man to take care of a child who was not his own. Just as it was advantegous for us as a whole to let some watch after the children so they were not eaten or tumbled off a cliff, and others catch the protein. Who did what is not really the point I made, just that the doing thereof changed us significantly with regards to our beings.

    Hence, the moral judgments presiding over our current practices today should necessarily take into account their part in our survival and though not completely shielded from judgment, then at least taken in at a more sympathetic light to reach an understanding of the subject. Often there is more sense in nonsense than at the first glance.

    This is the same thing as when you see a kid doing something stupid, and you call him just that. It’s to prevent him doing something stupid, and not to label him an eternal fool.

    Needless to say it’s an interesting topic.

  7. zek j evets

    in my experience in america, women and casual sex tend to be more closely intertwined than ever recently. a lot of the girls i dated seemed only interested in a VERY casual sexual relationship, and when things got to serious would dump me. fast.

    whether the women i’ve known were sincere in that their actions reflected their beliefs — as opposed to their actions merely hiding their true beliefs — i’ll never know. but i can say that casual sex is waaaaay more common nowadays than before, and while i don’t disrespect people for it, i did (and do) have trouble understanding/coping with it in my own personal relationships.

    as for whether women casual sex are truly compatible or not, my best guess is to follow the evidence i’ve seen, and that only leads to a yes. women and casual sex are common, if not downright normal, and often encouraged — maybe not by men, but certainly by other women.

    interesting post mira… lots to think about.

  8. Mira

    @Sigg3

    I am not denying biological differences, or archaeology. What I’m saying is, most of our sexual behavior is cultural and, while some of it does make evolutionary advantage, other doesn’t.

    Doesn’t really change the fact that one part of the group is out hunting, while the other group is back home looking after the kids in very simplified terms.

    Actually, in hunter-gatherer communities, men were hunting, women were gathering AND taking care of the kids. They were not staying “at home” so to speak. But let’s just say I get what you’re talking about.

    Now, as I said before, women are adulterers and loose just like their counterpart. But I think they are so in significantly different ways, and significantly less statistically.

    And I insist it’s a cultural thing. As witnessed in reality: in some cultures, women tend to involve in casual sex more than women in other cultures. (So do men, to be honest).

    You may argue that it would be just as evolutionary happy for women to be as busy as men. But this argument is easily thrown.

    How so? Ok, maybe not in a way of having sex with a different man every night. Still, women have ALL evolutionary interest to pick a male with the best genes to father her child… And a man who is the best caregiver to help raise the child. As witnessed in reality, nobody says the man should be the same. Men knew this and that’s one of the reasons for all the double standards and male chauvinism in “traditional” societies: men (husbands) know very well that women always seek better and better partners and that the child might not be theirs. So in order to make sure they are not raising someone else’s child, they must closely monitor their women and don’t give any freedom.

  9. Mira

    @zek j evets

    in my experience in america, women and casual sex tend to be more closely intertwined than ever recently.

    Well, it’s the same in many parts of the world (mine included). Now, this article assumes women DO involve in casual sex. My question was: why doesn’t it work for them? (not whether they do it or not).

    a lot of the girls i dated seemed only interested in a VERY casual sexual relationship, and when things got to serious would dump me. fast.

    I am sorry to hear this. However, the fact they were interested in sexual relationship only doesn’t mean they were actually happy with it.

    What I’m saying, you (and we) don’t know if they did it because they did want sex with you so badly (but not other aspect of a relationship) OR they wanted it for other (dare to say: wrong) reasons.

    Some wrong reasons for women (as presented in this article): to rebel, to prove their feminism, to objectify men, to feel strong. In other words, to have sexual power their grandmothers didn’t have. These are the wrong reasons because they are, in fact, not about the actual sexual experience.

    but i can say that casual sex is waaaaay more common nowadays than before, and while i don’t disrespect people for it, i did (and do) have trouble understanding/coping with it in my own personal relationships.

    Once again, I am sorry about your bad experiences.

    This brings us to a very interesting subject (I know nothing about, really): men and casual sex. How do men feel about it? I always wondered about this.

    Guys talk about it in positive terms, sure, but what I witnessed with my friends, most of them do it out of boredom and to prove their masculinity- not because they meet a woman they want so bad they lose their mind. In most of the cases, this attitude leads to uninspired sex that, I suspect, don’t really satisfy a man.

    However, given the cultural climate (that says men should be proud of the fact they had sex, with as many women as they can), men don’t view casual sex as a bad thing, even if the sex itself was bad.

    Just my opinion (that I can’t prove, because it’s impossible to find a man who’s honest enough about these issues).

  10. Hugh

    I’ve never met a woman who liked sex as much as men do. I don’t think it’s biology, it might been a cultural thing.

    Nothing wrong with casual sex, but I agree with Zek, being dumped by a woman who’s not interested in a relationship sucks a big time.

  11. Ankhesen Mié

    What I don’t get is…why can’t some men perform when they realize it really is just sex and the woman really does have ZERO intention of ever speaking to them afterward?

    Women like sex just as much as men–let me clarify that now. Just because a woman doesn’t want to sleep with a specific guy again doesn’t make her a lesbian or an anorgasmic icebox–she just doesn’t want to fuck him…period.

    Women have found that most men can’t follow directions in bed, no matter how simple they are. We’ve also found that even mentioning something’s not working for you will result in his having a nervous breakdown.

    Also, most grown-up women honestly prefer to roll over afterward and go to sleep, but men want “praise”. And if you don’t “praise”, then you don’t sleep. They wanna ask you if you were “satisfied” and if so, how, when, and what number of times.

    And if you think saying, “Yes” gets you off the hook, you’re sorely mistaken.

    Men don’t trust the “Yes” once they get it. So they start fishing for compliments, like calling their own dicks little in hopes you’ll “assure” them of otherwise. But even that
    doesn’t work.

    I mean…fuck that fact you’ve got to get up in the morning. Fuck the fact that you’ve got shit to do. To hell with you and your needs…to hell with your needs during sex and to hell with your needs after sex.

  12. Godheval

    @Sigg3

    But I think you’ll find that statistically, men are doing it a lot more, in a significant manner.

    What statistics? I think this is a misconception, and that men and women both do it equally. Men are just more inclined to “report” it (i.e. brag).

    @Mira:

    I do also think that biology plays more of a role than you’re indicating. In a post I wrote about 5 years ago, I said the following (truncated for space):

    Men…strictly for the purposes of propagating their genes, they are limited only by the availability and willingness of fertile women.
    […]

    Women, on the other hand have a finite amount of ova, and a relatively short time in which to procreate. Therefore…she must be selective in choosing her mates.

    […]

    A woman does not have the “hit or miss” freedom that a man does.

    […]

    …there is a very clear manifestation of this very biological process in society’s insistence that women be more selective. A natural offshoot of this is that women should be less promiscuous.

    This all from:

    Whores and Sluts
    http://godheval.net/whores-and-sluts/

  13. Godheval

    @Ankhesen:

    I don’t know what kind of mental-masturbating guys you deal with, but praise makes me feel fucking AWKWARD. And I hate platitudes. If I’ve done “well” (I’d call it “my job”), then I’ll know that from the response during the sex, more than any words spoken afterwards.

  14. Mira

    @Hugh
    I’ve never met a woman who liked sex as much as men do.

    Really, never? And how can you tell? Since nobody knows what sex feels to people of the opposite gender and all.

    Nothing wrong with casual sex, but I agree with Zek, being dumped by a woman who’s not interested in a relationship sucks a big time.

    True, but you must be strong and get over it.

  15. Mira

    Ankhesen Mié and Godheval,

    Welcome and thanks for commenting!

    @Ankhesen

    What I don’t get is…why can’t some men perform when they realize it really is just sex and the woman really does have ZERO intention of ever speaking to them afterward?

    You raised one important point. Indeed, why?

    My guess is that they know if it’s really all about sex, the sex itself must be amazing and memorable… And many are unsure if they’re able to perform the way woman requires.

    I guess men are always unsure about whether they are good lovers or not, and that is one of the reasons many prefer inexperienced women. It’s not about morality, it’s about the lack of confidence (well, not in ALL of the cases, but very often). It’s not the secret that many insecure men prefer virgins and are horrified by the mere thought of a woman who had many (read: more than 2) sexual partners.

    Women like sex just as much as men–let me clarify that now. Just because a woman doesn’t want to sleep with a specific guy again doesn’t make her a lesbian or an anorgasmic icebox–she just doesn’t want to fuck him…period.

    Exactly. I’ll talk more about this in my reply to Godheval, but I’ll just say now that the fact many women are selective doesn’t mean they are not interested in sex, even casual sex.

    Women have found that most men can’t follow directions in bed, no matter how simple they are. We’ve also found that even mentioning something’s not working for you will result in his having a nervous breakdown.

    Yes, because men often use sex not because of the physical pleasure or intimacy, but as a tool to boost their confidence. I bet many of them would choose a bad sex (to them) in which women said they were amazing and their dick was the best she ever had… than a good sex to them but a woman who is not impressed.

    Also, most grown-up women honestly prefer to roll over afterward and go to sleep, but men want “praise”.

    Thank you for this! There’s this nasty stereotype that men want to sleep after sex but women want to cuddle and have a romantic conversation. I don’t have any problems admitting I’m the rollover and sleep type, and I don’t understand the need to praise men in order for them to feel better.

  16. Mira

    @Godheval

    I wasn’t implying biology didn’t play any rule. I just believe culture (nurture) wins.

    For example, I can get men and women have different sexual strategies. Men just want to spread their seed and, in theory, don’t choose. They would be with any women that wants them. Good.

    But what about women? Biology might make them more selective and it does make sense. You don’t want just anybody’s genes for your child.

    However, I don’t understand how being selective means “not wanting casual sex” or “being monogamous”. There are thousands and billions of men on the Earth. You can be selective all you want and still sleep around. You just choose more carefully.

    Now, here’s a problem with the culture. In animals, males must appeal to females or fight for their attention. Females do nothing to appeal to males, they just exist. That’s why males in most of the species are more “beautiful”, brighter, they have colorful feathers and rich fur.

    It’s different with humans. Females are those who struggle to appeal to men. Females are those who take care of their physical appearance in order to be noticed. This contradicts biology and said patterns of sexual behavior. If females need just to exist and males must appeal to them, then why we (women) are those wearing make up, taking care of our hair, nails, weight, worrying about cellulite and whether our breasts and butts are of desirable shape?

    Also, the imperative of female monogamy is also cultural. If women were, indeed, monogamous, then locking them up and forcing them to forget about casual sex in order to earn respect wouldn’t be needed. But men know- just like men of the past knew- that women seek the best possible partners, always better and better, and that it’s impossible to a) force them to settle with one and b) ensure that the baby is, indeed, theirs (husband’s).

    Nice site, btw. I’ll read the article in question (and others) and post my comments.

    If I’ve done “well” (I’d call it “my job”), then I’ll know that from the response during the sex, more than any words spoken afterwards.

    Well, I don’t know about Ankhesen, but I was just generalizing. I never said ALL men do it. But it’s definitely a guy’s thing.

    But the fact whether you ask your partner about your performance or you “know” it during sex is irrelevant. It’s the worrying about it that’s the problem. You see, men often worry if they were good, if they are good lovers… If you really want to worry about something, worry about satisfying your partner because of HER and her needs, not so you could call yourself a good lover. A good lover is the one that cares about the sexual needs of a woman in question, not the one with largest dick or impressive cunnilingus technique… Because guess what, the lady in question might not be into that, and then what?

  17. Godheval

    @Mira

    However, I don’t understand how being selective means “not wanting casual sex” or “being monogamous”.

    That’s not the conclusion I’m drawing at all; I agree with you that culture trumps biology, I was just saying that even the cultural pressure for women to be selective has a biological basis. In the article I’m quoting, I actually argue for a much more liberal view of women’s sexuality.

    You see, men often worry if they were good, if they are good lovers…

    …worry about satisfying your partner because of HER and her needs…

    These two things are one in the same to me. My “performance” means nothing to me if my partner isn’t satisfied. I know I’ll be satisfied – I couldn’t avoid it if I tried – so the majority of my focus during sex is pleasing her.

  18. Sigg3

    Women enjoy sex just as much as anybody else. Just thought it should be said. I’m not saying otherwise.

    @Godheval: Good point regarding bragging. But even though IF distributed activity was equally performed by both sexes MY POINT is that it would STILL be in a significantly different way.

    By “significantly” I mean to invoke its prior meaning, namely that these ways of doing it signifies different things more primarily tied to our sexes qua nature.

    That doesn’t rule out that anyone of any sex can’t just have sex for the heck of it. Not at all. But that’s besides the point.

    @Mira: You wrote: “So in order to make sure they are not raising someone else’s child, they must closely monitor their women and don’t give any freedom.”

    That’s a good point as well. With regards to my own two “versions” of culture, what would you say that it is?
    I’d think it was both of them. You have as a natural being a crucial interest in breeding children of your own, while you can have a “refinement” or ritualization of this Practice turned into a “finer” or superficial culture over time. This is sort of what I’m trying to get across.

    @zek j evets: My American friends say that American girls are easy.. I can not say one way or the other.

    Also, I think we’re focusing very much on one age group (young) here.

    .. and talk about opening a can of worms:)

  19. Mira

    @Godheval
    I agree with you that culture trumps biology, I was just saying that even the cultural pressure for women to be selective has a biological basis.

    But the problem I have with culture (one of the many problems- but that’s another story) is the fact it doesn’t pressure women to be selective (which would make the most biological sense).

    Culture, more or less, pressure women to be non-sexual outside very specific conditions (marriage), and often values virginity and monogamy. While I’m all for monogamy in a relationship, I can’t help noticing these mechanisms work for men better than women- they don’t enforce female natural sexual selectivity, but PREVENT IT.

    And they do it because they were created by those who had power: men, who adjusted the norms in order to suit THEIR sexual and cultural needs (ensuring that the child they raise is, indeed, their biological child).

  20. Mira

    @Sigg3
    But even though IF distributed activity was equally performed by both sexes MY POINT is that it would STILL be in a significantly different way.

    Different way, yes. But not in a way that women wouldn’t have casual sex. They would only be more selective when choosing a partner. In fact, they would be more selective than they are today, when any drunk college student can go “wild” and have sex with random men so she could explore her “power and freedom”, and rebel against her parents.
    Men, on the other hand, I think it would be the same (on average). Women without sexual inhibitions sound like a good thing, but it doesn’t mean much to a guy that no highly selective woman wants.

    That’s a good point as well. With regards to my own two “versions” of culture, what would you say that it is?

    Look at my reply to Godheval. Finding the best biological father and the best caregiver for a child are woman’s interests (note that these two might not be the same man). Spreading the seed and ensuring that the child he raises is really his are man’s interests. These interests are conflicting in nature and, dare to say, impossible to achieve in a society without a conflict (which is never good for a society). So, one group must win and adjust the things to suit their needs. Historically, men had more power than women, so that’s why their rules were met.

    @zek j evets: My American friends say that American girls are easy.. I can not say one way or the other.

    Hmmm… To be honest, (young) men of all the cultures I know praise their mothers and sisters and even the generic “women” of their culture as wonderful and moral in all the aspects… But at the same time, they claim that girls in their culture are “very easy”. Contradiction?

    Also, I think we’re focusing very much on one age group (young) here.

    Well, that’s the age group I know the best. (Late teens-Early 30s, I’d say). I don’t know how women in their 40s or 50s or 60s feel about the subject.

    Also, I don’t know how men feel about the subject. If any of the guys here want to do a guest post (Men and casual sex), I’d be more than happy to publish it.

    Something Godheval wrote really hit me. “I know I’ll be satisfied – I couldn’t avoid it if I tried”. That, I suppose, might be the main difference between male and female experience, and I’d love to discuss it.

  21. Emma

    I am not against casual sex but i dont think its the right thing to me.

    i’m not oldfashioned or anything, but i want intimacy in sex and you cant get that this way.

    In my opinion, men seek for intimacy too, but they are often afraid to admit it. i dont think they enjoy casual sex, not nearly as much as they claim.

  22. Mariana

    This post is so pop that even my boyfriend read it. lol I’m sorry I didn’t comment earlier.

    I believe that blaming biology it’s too easy and imature. I’m not saying we’re not controlled by nature, because we are. But this has limits. Humans are animals but TOO MUCH has changed in the human way of life to say that culture or social standarts aren’t decisive in our behavior, in any aspect of life.

    If Biology were the most important factor here we wouldn’t be having sex just for fun (with one or many partners) and taking contraceptives of any kind, because animals just have sex for procriation and stoping procriation is just against nature.

    Many things of our sexual behavior is “dictate is more influential in it.

  23. Mira Post author

    @Mariana

    Don’t worry about being “late” here :) Hope you’re fine, I can see you’re not blogging much lately.

    What does your boyfriend think about the subject?

    I agree with you: nature is nature, but in humans, I believe, nurture wins.

  24. Natasha W

    Hi Mira! :)

    Nice post. I agree with a lot of the points you raised in this post. Namely, that it is largely culture, not biology, that dictates gender behaviors on a wide scale, and that many men embrace double standards when it comes to sex and relationships.

    I personally have never been one for casual sex, but I chalk that up to my own quirky personality, as my romantic ideals are rarely matched by either gender/sex.

    zek j evets,

    “in my experience in america, women and casual sex tend to be more closely intertwined than ever recently. a lot of the girls i dated seemed only interested in a VERY casual sexual relationship, and when things got to serious would dump me. fast.”

    I agree with you on this point. I have known many women who engage in casual sex with no qualms. And that is where I disagree with Mira: at least in the US, it is not rare for many woman to be involved in this way and be very happy with this routine.

    Hugh,

    “I’ve never met a woman who liked sex as much as men do. I don’t think it’s biology, it might been a cultural thing.”

    That’s because you haven’t met me… pleaed to meet you. :)

    I do so love sex. My SO says that I have the brain of a guy, but I think he gives men too much credit! I would discuss how much I love sex more often and more openly (it’s interesting, because I’ve been called a “prude” before since people never hear me mention it) but I’m aware that it’s not a “ladylike” thing to do. The responses seem to be largely negative from both men and women when I do, so I just don’t.

    Ankhesen,

    “Also, most grown-up women honestly prefer to roll over afterward and go to sleep”

    You know it! I’m tired.

    Emma,

    “In my opinion, men seek for intimacy too, but they are often afraid to admit it. i dont think they enjoy casual sex, not nearly as much as they claim.”

    I agree with this. Men do seek intimacy through sex: they feel more connected and validated through sexual contact. At least all of the men that I know personally have. And many of them were turned off by being objectified (as they claimed I was doing to them).

    “I believe that blaming biology it’s too easy and imature. I’m not saying we’re not controlled by nature, because we are. But this has limits. Humans are animals but TOO MUCH has changed in the human way of life to say that culture or social standarts aren’t decisive in our behavior, in any aspect of life.”

    I couldn’t agree more. And notice how in nearly every other aspect of life besides sex, romance, and relationships, people (mainly men) claim that we are more advanced than animals. But when it comes to sex we are no better than animals! Okay, then. ;)

  25. Mira Post author

    Welcome, Natasha! Glad to see you here :)

    I agree with a lot of the points you raised in this post. Namely, that it is largely culture, not biology, that dictates gender behaviors on a wide scale

    I am glad you commented here. As a biologist, you have a better understanding of the natural part of sexuality and human behavior. All I can speak of is anthropology, and it does look to me that nurture wins over nature here (and many other segments of human experience).

    many men embrace double standards when it comes to sex and relationships

    I agree. But I guess the fact some women choose to play by double standards doesn’t help.
    I’ve been called a “prude” before since people never hear me mention it

    Whether a person talks about sex or not has nothing to do with liking/disliking sex. After all, it’s one of those intimate, private things- yes, even if we’re talking about casual sex. Also, there’s no need to talk about sex; just do it. :D I might be generalizing, but those who talk about sex and act in overly sexual manner (in everyday setting) tend to be those who lack sex or want to send a particular image that might not be close to reality.

    I agree with this. Men do seek intimacy through sex: they feel more connected and validated through sexual contact.

    I second this. I do believe all humans need intimacy, and sex is a great source of it. I simply refuse to believe a drunken 3 minute sex with a stranger can fulfill those needs. It can fulfill some OTHER needs (confirmation of masculinity, social acceptance, etc) but no, I don’t think casual sex can truly satisfy man’s needs.

  26. Mira Post author

    And that is where I disagree with Mira: at least in the US, it is not rare for many woman to be involved in this way and be very happy with this routine.

    I know there are (many) woman who involve in casual sex and who like doing it. However, I had to ask (and that’s the main point of the article): do they enjoy SEX, or some OTHER thing?

    I do believe, for many, it’s more about freedom, feeling powerful and in charge, feeling emancipated and rebellion (especially for younger women). I am not sure if they truly enjoy SEXUAL part of it. Not because a woman is unable to enjoy sex outside a long term relationship, but because of men.

    It all depends on a man. If he’s uninspired and don’t care about her sexual needs (like it’s often the case with casual sex and one night stands), I highly doubt she enjoys the actual sexual act.

  27. Mariana

    It was the funnies thing. We’re talking about sex (of course) and relationships in general and he spoke of many exemples in nature (he’s a biologist) and he said that you can easily find nature in society but in the end he simply said: “It’s like that friend of yours wrote, biology can’t overcome society”

    It took me a moment to figure out what friend of mine wrote what because I didn’t know he was aware of your blog (though I have shown him the Twilight spittings)

    I updated my blog this week. I lost a whole post and I had to write it again (I’m pretty sure that it isn’t as good as the original) now I’m working on my Iron Man review.

  28. Natasha W

    Mira,

    “I know there are (many) woman who involve in casual sex and who like doing it. However, I had to ask (and that’s the main point of the article): do they enjoy SEX, or some OTHER thing?

    I do believe, for many, it’s more about freedom, feeling powerful and in charge, feeling emancipated and rebellion (especially for younger women).”

    Hmmm, I’ve rarely run into people like that. Or at least I was never told by most women and I never detected that those were their reasons for participating in sex. They just did it because well… it’s “normal” and they had the hots for the guy. You have to realize that sex isn’t very taboo in the U.S. as compared to many other societies (meaning engaging in sex; talking about it is another issue), so women aren’t going to feel rebellious or powerful for it. I do think that many engage in it to feel loved and appreciated though, which might fall under “wrong reason” in regards to casual sex.

    But who is to say that it is really the sex that all/most men enjoy and not something else (like being validated, feeling “masculine,” etc)?

  29. Mira

    @Mariana

    I updated my blog this week. I lost a whole post and I had to write it again (I’m pretty sure that it isn’t as good as the original) now I’m working on my Iron Man review.

    Can’t wait for the review! To be honest, I hated “Iron Man”. I like both Robert Downey Jr and Jeff Bridges, but I disliked this one.

    @Natasha

    Hmmm, I’ve rarely run into people like that. Or at least I was never told by most women and I never detected that those were their reasons for participating in sex. They just did it because well… it’s “normal” and they had the hots for the guy.

    Maybe you’re referring to “older” women (lol, not “old”, but older than I do). I am mainly talking about women in their teens and early 20s, though I must admit women I know in their late 20s and early 30s are somewhat the same.

    They all claim to enjoy it, and like it and I am happy for them… But when I talk to them they often complain about the lack of quality sex, and the fact attractive men often give uninspired sex and think all about themselves.

    But they all like the excitement of meeting somebody new, flirting, seducing, etc. So I do think they enjoy the experience, but they usually talk more about the excitement of the experience and how it made them feel good- but often criticize the actual physical experience.

    You have to realize that sex isn’t very taboo in the U.S. as compared to many other societies

    Oh, it’s the same here. Sex isn’t taboo here, not at all. People here are not really conservative- even if they try to appear as such. There are, however, double standards and the golden rule for females is that they should not talk about having sex with different men, even if they do (they might “earn” a slut label). So, as long as you don’t brag about it all the time, you can do whatever you want. Indeed, that’s what many people do.

    In fact, to people here, Americans often seem way too puritan. We laugh at the fact any movie that has even a brief nudity is R rated, and we also find it strange to read about virginity pledges and “nothing before marriage” decisions. Premarital sex is norm here; people usually feel that to marry someone you never had sex with is the same as marrying someone you never saw before.

    I have no idea what is the average age for first sex, but I’d say older teens (17, 18). Nobody sees having sex at 13 as a good thing, but being a virgin in your 20s is seen as a little strange (if you are a girl) and horrible and “unheard of” if you’re a guy (I don’t share these views, but that’s how majority of people see it).

    There’s a lot of “Sex and the City” mentality going on.

    That doesn’t change the fact girls and women who have many sexual partners are called sluts.

    To me, it looks like the situation is similar to America (correct me if I’m wrong).

    We only have less percentage of teenage mothers, I believe- but that’s because there are more abortions.

    so women aren’t going to feel rebellious or powerful for it.

    All I know about everyday America I learned watching US films and TV shows- and we all know how “accurate” they are. But to me, “feeling free, and powerful and in control” seem like popular themes in women and casual sex narrative. So it seems to me there are still double standards in America, and wherever you have double standards you have people fighting against them.

    But who is to say that it is really the sex that all/most men enjoy and not something else (like being validated, feeling “masculine,” etc)?

    I’d really like to know. That’s why I asked men to share their thoughts and opinions in a guest post. But nobody is interested. :(

    You can do it anonymously, if you are embarrassed to talk about it otherwise :D

  30. Natasha W

    “Maybe you’re referring to “older” women (lol, not “old”, but older than I do). I am mainly talking about women in their teens and early 20s, though I must admit women I know in their late 20s and early 30s are somewhat the same.”

    I’m referring mainly to women in their late teens through mid 20s.

    Interesting bit about the sexual norms in Serbia. I always thought Eastern Europe was a bit more conservative, maybe because all of the people I knew from that area are more conservative in appearance. Funny to know they let it all out behind closed doors. :D

    “I have no idea what is the average age for first sex, but I’d say older teens (17, 18).”

    That’s about the same as ours, but a bit higher; we’re about 16/17.

    “That doesn’t change the fact girls and women who have many sexual partners are called sluts.

    To me, it looks like the situation is similar to America (correct me if I’m wrong).”

    Yes, it’s the same here. Except a woman with many sexual partners can escape being called a “slut” if she (a) doesn’t broadcast her sexual escapades and (b) makes sure that those she sleeps with do not know each other or hang in the same circles.

    “When I said “you” I didn’t mean on you, Natasha, but my male readers. “

    Ah, okay. I was thinking “But I’m not a man!”

  31. Mira

    Interesting bit about the sexual norms in Serbia. I always thought Eastern Europe was a bit more conservative, maybe because all of the people I knew from that area are more conservative in appearance. Funny to know they let it all out behind closed doors.

    Well, define “Eastern Europe”. I do believe situation is a bit different in countries made of former Yugoslavian republics (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia…) Yugoslavia was always opened to west and its customs (fashion, music, etc).

    As for appearance, I have to disagree: people, especially females here, dress pretty provocatively even in everyday settings. That confuses males, who see them as “open and ready”, but it doesn’t work that way; most of them do not sleep around as much as their provocative clothes might suggest (and confuse) males.

    The problem is, many young women here don’t understand that they should not look like Sex and the City girls all the time (especially since they don’t have Sex and the City girls’ money).

    That’s about the same as ours, but a bit higher; we’re about 16/17.

    Well, I put the average a bit higher because I believe people often lie about these things, especially in high school. When I was in high school, I thought everybody had sex at the age of 16- especially guys and that there would be no virgins by the time we graduate. Only later I learned that many people lie about this because to be a virgin is “shameful”, especially for guys.

    Yes, it’s the same here. Except a woman with many sexual partners can escape being called a “slut” if she (a) doesn’t broadcast her sexual escapades and (b) makes sure that those she sleeps with do not know each other or hang in the same circles.

    Oh, by all means, it’s the same, that’s what I tried to explain. You can do whatever you want, as long as you’re clever enough not to tell everyone about it. Finding a guy outside your usual social circle is also a good thing. That’s why many girls go wild on vacation. ;)

    Bottom line: Young people here often shape their lives on American TV shows and movies. Pathetic, I know, but that’s how it goes. But it leads to some interesting situations, since American reality is not the same as the one portrayed in the movies. For example, in the movies, actresses are very thin- so all the girls here believe they must be as thin, while average American teenager don’t have a pressure to be THAT thin (I know there is a pressure and anorexia, but I also know in America- ok, some parts of America- a girl that is considered overweight here is seen as average or even thin in (some parts of) America).

  32. Natasha W

    Mira,

    “Well, define “Eastern Europe”. I do believe situation is a bit different in countries made of former Yugoslavian republics (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia…) Yugoslavia was always opened to west and its customs (fashion, music, etc).”

    Hmmm, yes, I guess it depends on how you are defining Eastern. I meant more than just former Yugoslavia.

    I dated a Bulgarian guy who was pretty open about sexuality (and a drinker and smoker… not very appealing to me), but his parents were very conservative and “stiff.” I thought this was because they grew up in Bulgaria, while he came to the US while he was still young. Same with my Polish friend. But maybe it was just them.

    “As for appearance, I have to disagree: people, especially females here, dress pretty provocatively even in everyday settings.”

    They do?… Actually, that makes sense. I remember the guy I mentioned above talking about how the women there were different from the women in the US.

    “Bottom line: Young people here often shape their lives on American TV shows and movies.”

    Oh no! That’s the worse thing one could do. American TV isn’t much like America at all. Everything is either romanticized or sensationalized, and TV plays up stereotypes or creates them. If I were trying to be like the people on TV, I would be miserable.

    “Pathetic, I know, but that’s how it goes. But it leads to some interesting situations, since American reality is not the same as the one portrayed in the movies.”

    Exactly.

  33. Mira

    I dated a Bulgarian guy who was pretty open about sexuality (and a drinker and smoker… not very appealing to me), but his parents were very conservative and “stiff.” I thought this was because they grew up in Bulgaria, while he came to the US while he was still young. Same with my Polish friend. But maybe it was just them.

    Funny you mentioned these countries, because I’m part Polish and part Bulgarian; however, we’re talking about great granmother/granfather, so I am not in touch with relatives in Bulgaria and Poland.

    Eastern Europeans tend to be more conservative in some ways, mainly when it comes to family relations. In my country, due to economic reasons, kids stay at their parent’s houses for a long time (till their mid-30 or something), and many even start their own families there. That makes family relations a bit different and maybe more conservative.

    But when it comes to sex, I didn’t notice much of a difference, except that there seems to be less teenage mothers in Serbia (I explained why) than in America, but there are also none of virginity pledges type or abstinence only programs here.

    So I really don’t know. Maybe economic/social situation has a lot to do with it. And the type of communism/socialism in Eastern European countries. Yugoslavia had its unique form of socialism that was marked with government’s animosity towards Soviet Union and a silent, but important, acceptance towards west (in terms of popular culture if nothing else).

    As for smoking, most of the people smoke here, that is almost a norm. As for drinking, heavy drinking is seen as a bad thing, but the occasional isn’t; there are social situations in which is expected for you to drink, at least a bit.

    Oh no! That’s the worse thing one could do. American TV isn’t much like America at all. Everything is either romanticized or sensationalized, and TV plays up stereotypes or creates them.

    I understand that. That’s why I was always intrigued to learn what is really like in America.

  34. Pingback: Jefflion.net

  35. Ray

    “attractive men often give uninspired sex and think all about themselves.”

    Because they are all homosexuals. That is a fact.

    Also, in the case of Eastern Europe, girls won’t have sex with just some random guy unless he has $ or Euro because it is a win/loss situation. Also, men are mostly gay there.

    Most American girls are fat, so they are pretty much useless.

  36. Mira Post author

    Hi Ray,

    You’re so funny.

    You seem to be quite obsessed with gay men.

    Also, please note that I let this comment go through, because it’s your first time and all. But this sort of comments are not encouraged here: blind trash talk is not productive, to say the least. Nor are the offensive comments, mmkay?

  37. serpentus

    Casual sex is not good for women. They will be thought of as sluts and whores. Women cannot have sex without having emotional investment in a man/relationship.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>